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Marcus Personn - man who ruined game industry

Discussion in 'Nerd Out Zone' started by TYHENDER, Jun 6, 2016.


    TYHENDER Industrial Re-revolutionist

    I`m sure all of you know about Marcus Personn. He`s the guy who created minecraft.
    Minecraft is one of the popular games even now. But in fact it`s one of the worst games ever. No, gameplay is cool and graphics is original,but this game is made by noob.

    Minecraft is made with programming language called Java. But it`s secret to noone that Java is
    . Minecraft eats more RAM and CPU than Crysis 3. So that`s totally a shit.
    2. Minecraft is a clone!
    Marcus made a vide called "infiniminer clone" a big time ago. But video got deleted because Marcu wasn`t Mojang`s(Therefore minecraft`s) owner.
    A lot of people say Minecraft has many clones.(There`s some that say that SoA is a clone too.)But that all not true,because minecraft is clone itself of a game called Infiniminer.Infinimer never was as popular as MC does,but this fun is still fun to play.
  2. ColdFuseon

    ColdFuseon Lost in Space

    • Contributor
    Interesting to know, never heard of Infiniminer before .. And now that I'm looking at it, I'm realizing minecraft indeed is a ripoff of it. I guess Markus was luckier than the devs of Infinimer

    I mean holy shit, there's even TNT and ores

    ColdFuseon, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited by ColdFuseon; at Jun 6, 2016
  3. PsychoticLeprechaun

    PsychoticLeprechaun Designer & Web Developer

    • Dev Member
    I was aware of Infiniminer even when I first bought Minecraft and was never given an impression of Minecraft being a clone or rip-off. Several things stand out to me as problematic in this analysis of Minecraft:
    (A) Minecraft's development came after Infiniminer was already at end-of-life due to the game's source code being leaked.
    (B) Minecraft, while inspired by Infiniminer, took things in a quite drastically different direction under Notch
    --> Notch was aiming for as minimalist a gameplay design as possible, by capturing the core mechanics that made Infiniminer fun and making something that expanded on those aspects. With some changes of course, but he definitely captured the concept Infiniminer was exploring very well.
    (C) Minecraft went for a different aesthetic overall, though still well within the pixel-art category.

    Also, while Java isn't the best language for all use-cases, even the one Minecraft arguably sits under now (relatively high-resource demand game, especially when modded). At the time Notch started making Minecraft, he never intended it to be as large as it became both in terms of people playing it and in terms of scope. Further, for what Notch was intending, Java makes more sense than a lower-level language like C/C++ as it is just easier to use as a programming novice. Of course, hindsight being 20/20 it seems clear now a more performance-centric approach to programming Minecraft may have helped given the issues one saw with vanilla Minecraft, never mind mods, until the most recent updates. Whether Minecraft would have exploded in popularity as it has if Notch took such an approach, who knows; it would no doubt have been a slower development pace at the very least.

    Minecraft has undeniably suffered from some development decisions, but quite honestly all those have been overwhelmed by community support at both the single and multiplayer levels in terms of modding. In fact, probably the worst thing Mojang have done is not put more effort into nurturing and helping keep together the Bukkit community - not that the core Bukkit devs helped keep Bukkit together. Though thankfully much of those that contributed to that community were resilient enough to begin creating the new, and much better Sponge API.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
    PsychoticLeprechaun, Jun 7, 2016
    Last edited by PsychoticLeprechaun; at Jun 7, 2016
    Arpak likes this.
  4. Arctic

    Arctic Giant Robot Advocate

    • Tester
    Minecraft's core problem is just that it simply isn't engaging at any sort of "Intellectual" level. After about 30 minutes, struggle becomes nearly non-existent, and there is no build-up or real progress. Food stacks, making it trivial to store literally years' worth of food in a small room, and the most efficient way to build and to play is also the least fun. There is next to no multiplayer "Security", and everyone must rely on trust or restrictive plugins to regulate griefing.

    Even a few more hurdles to jump through would have been good. A "Brick Furnace", for instance. An "Advanced Crafting Table". As it stands, the game suffers from the all-too-common problem of being wide as an ocean and deep as a puddle, and about as interesting as the two combined to boot. While one may be able to point to the freedom and unrestrictive gameplay as an upside, rules are the core of all games - without them, we may as well play in a toybox. It is for this reason that a majority of the adult playerbase for Minecraft has moved on; the game has become boring, there is no struggle, and there is no meaning to anything they build. It is useless.

    To add to this, feature bloat has infested Minecraft's core. There are dozens of features that are half-baked and useless, and dozens more that are not used to their full potential. Minecraft's voxel-based nature allows for terrain deformation, but nearly all the minigames and maps in the game completely eschew this for a traditional hack-and-slash style. Furthermore, almost no Minecraft maps call for any sort of meaningful construction, and design in any form is moot anyway - Creepers cannot breach weak walls, nor can zombies break through even wooden doors like they were intended to, as the exploit to avoid this is trivially easy to use, and has not been fixed for several years, despite it having been found within the first hour of the patch's release.

    It honestly pains me to see such potential get utterly wasted. I'm looking at you lot here.
    NeonSturm likes this.
  5. joppiesaus

    joppiesaus Infamous Space-Octopus

    • Member
    Wow wow wow hold on there

    The first thing I want to say that his name is "Markus Persson", not "Marcus Personn"

    Ok, the game's performance is not amazing, but does that make a bad game? No! Only unbearable performance & crashes can ruin a game.
    It also made perfect sense to stick with Java since his intention was not to create a game that millions of people play. It was never the intention to become a big game. Java is a familiar and simple language that you can use, it's much more easy then writing a brutal C++ Voxel Engine From Scratch Runs On A Potato (R)(TM)

    A long time ago I played some Infiniminer, and I want to say that Ifiniminer was a "competetive mining game", while Minecraft was a block building game chopping down trees simulator 2009 hd edition thinggy. Thus, Minecraft is not a Infiniminer clone, even though it started off being a clone. You can read more about that here. Heck, SoA is shares also some major mechanics from Minecraft & Infiniminer. Does that make a bad game? No.

    Again his intention was not to create a big huge call of warcraft 3: GOTY edition. He wanted to simply make a variant of Infiniminer.

    Taking ideas from other creative matter is a thing in creative processes. Never should you be worried to clone anything. I've made paintings, not clones, but there are some techniques that I borrowed from other paintings. Same goes with games.

    I do not understand why you think Minecraft is a terrible game. In fact, I don't have a single clue why you think Minecraft is a terrible game. I like Minecraft. I have had a lot of fun playing it. It turned the whole game industry upside-down. Everything that people were so sure about with making successful games, were suddenly no longer valid(tutorial, pr, objectives, etc).

    And I agree with the other people in this thread. I like those points a lot.
    NeonSturm likes this.

    TYHENDER Industrial Re-revolutionist

    I didn`t say that Minecraft is a terrible game -.-
    I played it a lot back then in 2010. Looks like i wrote this thread too brutal XD
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2016
    TYHENDER, Jun 18, 2016
    Last edited by TYHENDER; at Jun 19, 2016
    PsychoticLeprechaun likes this.
  7. Sevio

    Sevio Back Into Space

    • Member
    I don't think Minecraft is a bad game. Resource demanding when modded, but the base game runs acceptably on many modest PCs and integrated graphics. Believe it or not, the vast majority of people who have played minecraft will have only played the vanilla game for a limited time.

    Complaints about lack of gameplay depth I can understand, but at the same time I don't think Minecraft ever aimed its survival gameplay to be like Don't Starve, where the struggle never ends. It's hard to find time to get creative and build something that adds life and variety to the world when you're constantly under pressure just to survive. And no matter how heavily you mod Minecraft, most players will still strive to reach the tech plateau as soon as possible, but then they'll get bored quickly afterward. Its longevity doesn't come from keeping you in a constant struggle for survival, it's the creative building projects of players who want to make their world something more than just a collection of farms, storage and crafting areas.

    This is why I hope Seed of Andromeda will offer plenty of opportunity to get creative with a good selection of decorative blocks and objects, as well as redstone-like mechanics that the technically minded can play with to build mechanisms for productivity or creativity. :)
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
    Sevio, Jun 20, 2016
    Last edited by Sevio; at Jun 21, 2016

    TYHENDER Industrial Re-revolutionist

    Physics mechs could be very cool. And yeah,i like seeing a game that`s struggle never eds. Well,yeah if you will stick at Aldrin all the time game shouldn`t be very hard(or else we can forget about space) but player should want to conquer space,right?
  9. NeonSturm

    NeonSturm Back Into Space

    • Member
    Don't judge MC's performance. It is bad, but it was never a goal to optimize the heck out of it.

    Sadly, all the mods are … not in a coherent collection.
    Anyway, MC itself does not deserve credits for mods, only for making the game mod-able. The credits belong to the community devs.

    I see MC as a great sandbox for children. A great tool to learn interior design … but sadly, there aren't any tools shipped in the core game to tell you what others enjoy and what you can try out.
    Now, Space-Engineers and StarMade are sometimes better sandboxes, because they have moving parts. Even SoA gets space-ships and vehicles.
    MC may look differently if you look from a RPG-perspective on it. But more modern MCs are comming.

    I hope that part of MC's code or ideas in UI-design, artwork or the experience gained from the players playing it and commenting in forums can be used to make EVEN BETTER games.
  10. Arctic

    Arctic Giant Robot Advocate

    • Tester
    Moddable? Barely. Where is the fabled modding API we were promised? Where is even the support for mods between versions? Where is the basic ability for mods to change even things like the UI, to have the audacity to actually modify a base game block or item or mechanic? It is literally impossible to recreate 1.7.3 beta as a mod, because the game simply does not allow it. Moddable? Only by sheer virtue of tenacity.
  11. NeonSturm

    NeonSturm Back Into Space

    • Member
    An aspect that is not discussed often enough.
    Perhaps, to make a consistent API, you have to add an auto-updater to Mod-code itself.
    Usually, APIs for my own projects (and java-classes especially) often see that I decide to change the naming scheme because I learnt something new or change internal organisation.

    For myself I try to add semantic matching for possible parameters and available variables to auto-regenerate new functions from old ones but this requires a custom IDE.
    For code which does not require much optimization, I try to counter-act this problem by issuing variable changes and requesting required parameters with callback-function, but this requires a custom interpreter or compiler.
    But this can mess up speculative execution :(

    That's why I try to out-source speculative execution (only-reading outsourced code which returns required/not-required) into the parameter providers (put checks for correct parameters into the caller if it can't guarantee it or doesn'T have the trust for a guarantee) to avoid redundancy checks and put speculative execution where it can be performed more efficient.
    But currently I struggle to make it work outside the interpreter and my own environment. Often peoples work with their fav editor and I can't add support for all – it would certainly fail at peoples using it with all these one-environment requirements.
  12. Gingy

    Gingy Back Into Space

    • Member
    It seems a lot of people have already said quite a lot on this topic, so I'm sorry if my points were already mentioned in the walls of text.

    I do think Notch's works were FAR overblown. He basically just took a bunch of good traits that already existed and pieced them together in a way that was easier for the mainstream to swallow. He also happened to gain a lot of fame around the time that this hunger for massive worlds in games began. The timing makes it look like he was the cause for this trend in making bigger and bigger maps.

    As for the qualms about him using Java, the language sucks, but Minecraft makes it look worse than it is, because he was a terrible programmer. Based on the changelogs, most of Mojang's work post-Microsoft accquisition was cleaning up the mess that was Notch's code. Virtually everything else was most likely last minute changes. If Mojang were still their own company, you couldn't get me to shut up about wanting them to port Minecraft over to a better language. The reason I don't want it now is that as soon as that happens, Microsoft has absolutely zero obligation to keep the game cross platform. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the plan for the Windows 10 edition.

    Why? DirectX. Minecraft uses OpenGL. Worse yet, it uses a very dated version of OpenGL. (I believe they're using 2.1 as of writing this, and the last version to be released was 4.5) Microsoft has an opportunity to spread misinformation to promote their graphical API. The vast majority of people aren't going to know that Minecraft ran terribly because it was using a version of OpenGL that came out ten years ago. People are going to see a port using DirectX 12, something whose predecessor alone would run circles around OpenGL 2.1, see that it's faster, and forget about the millions with Mac and Linux machines who play Minecraft too who now can't. And that's without including people who don't have an Xbox One who could see support for the Playstation versions dropped.
    NeonSturm likes this.
  13. NeonSturm

    NeonSturm Back Into Space

    • Member
    Reminds me of Monopoly (the board game).

    If Mine-craft ever comes out with Direct-X only support, we should immediately run a campaign together with the StarMade community - it's their greatest nightmare that Java gets discredited because it runs in Java and cross-platform too.

    – At best we have many commends on a massive You-Tube, Google+ and Twitter
    – together with a change.org campaign to put pressure for renaming MineCraft to MicroCraft or MC2 as it no longer runs on all platforms.
    – – (mc2 = m=c² ? a nice joke about it)
    Space-Engineers runs on Windows only and is still laggy and buggy - we should use this as argument.
    – SoA devs could (making advertising for SoA btw) use their experience with SoA as an argument for the quality of their arguments (but it could also be a double-edged sword, dunno)

    – And while we are on it, we could request an open standard for content-sharing between games with the argument that content does belong to the players, not to a specific dev/game/tos.
    NeonSturm, Jul 14, 2016
    Last edited by NeonSturm; at Jul 14, 2016
  14. Gingy

    Gingy Back Into Space

    • Member
    SoA is a basically the reason that I don't think we should completely drop OpenGL in favor of Vulkan and/or DX12. Space Engineers isn't a great example, because someone could easily just say that game was poorly written. I also doubt a Change.org petition will get anywhere on this matter. It's funny you say what you did about requesting an open standard, because that's the biggest argument for OpenGL/Vulkan. It's a single graphical API for everything from a $50 semi-smart phone to a $50,000 Pixar quality workstation. Meanwhile, you can count the things DirectX works on with one hand.
    NeonSturm likes this.

    TYHENDER Industrial Re-revolutionist

    Saying honestly,i don`t want that SoA move on Vulcan,it will drop support of old video cards.
  16. Gingy

    Gingy Back Into Space

    • Member
    Well, at this rate, the cards that don't support Vulkan may well not be used anymore when SoA comes out. Even with OpenGL 3.1 (which I think is what they use, but I thought I remember they upped it to 3.3) only goes so far back.
    Gingy, Jul 15, 2016
    Last edited by Gingy; at Jul 15, 2016

    TYHENDER Industrial Re-revolutionist

    Well,i have a LOOOOT of old computers,with some ATI x.x.x series,and SoA still works.(With some stuff changed)

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